Valuing The Feminine

My friend Wes (substack) has some disagreements with my previous post where I advise men to like the feminine virtues of their women partners.

Is This Just Gender Essentialism?

This is just gender essentialism

Eneasz Brodski, for some reason, makes it about gender and acts like all women are the same and into "girl stuff"

I disagree on factual terms but agree on vibes terms¹, which is a fun position to be in. Factually Wes is wrong, because I said

The broader virtues of agreeableness and nurturing are pretty lacking in men, as compared to women. It’s why those virtues are considered “feminine.”

and

There’s many ways for humans to be, don’t get too hung up on the stereotypes. There are some feminine traits that I have [...] Likewise there’s some masculine traits I lack

So no, I specifically say that all people are NOT the same and not into the same stuff.

On the other hand, on a vibes level the post is oozing with "Women and men are essentially different in these specific ways due to their gender" vibes. There's a reason for this.

Scott Alexander's post Should You Reverse Any Advice You Hear makes a strong case that the advice any individual is most likely to hear is the opposite of the advice they actually need, due to social bubbles! IE very liberal men are already very deferential to women, women in their groups are most reacting to bad treatment by outsiders who are misogynistic, so most of the advice liberal men hear is "be even more deferential to women" which is counterproductive and makes them unattractive. (While the misogynistic people never hear this advice, and instead hear "be more assertive and controling!" which is also counterproductive and bad for them!)

The people who I interact with and who read my blog are those who most strongly believe (as I did a few years ago) that men and women are basically identical, and both men and women should partner up with someone who is as close to identical with themselves as possible to maximize happiness. Because we heard an advice-cascade-loop that led to this outcome.

But it's a bad outcome! I think people are usually worse off if pursuing this, both due to the amount of suppressing personality traits it encourages in both parties and in the loss of complexity & antifragility it entails. To push against that I'm saying "Hey, actually women are different! In very common & reproducible ways! And you're both better off like this!" The vibe of “Men and women are essentially different” is present not because I believe all stereotypes are fully applicable all the time and everyone should conform to them, but because for my audience the “gender differences” vibe is pushing toward a more accurate view of reality than what is currently believed.

Just Pursue What You Want Bro

This leads to the second objection from Wes, which is that there are indeed some women out there that are naturally very masculine, and that it’s OK for guys to want that.

If you want a woman who acts like a typical dude, go find one!

Yes it’s OK to want that. But most men in our circles don't even consider that they would actually be happier with girls that are into girl stuff than girls who are fellow bros in hot-chick bodies. Because, as I said in the previous post, that is unintuitive and almost absurd on its face! But I hold it is true.

Wes says that if I wanted to make the same point without gender essentialism I could have phrased it with more nuance:

what you should have said: men and women cluster around different traits, but there is a lot of overlap, So whatever you want in a woman, that woman probably out there. The challenge is finding her.

That is in fact exactly counter to what I’m advocating. The point of the post isn't "find what you want, it's out there, but it's hard to find." My point is that "You've been told all your life that girl stuff is lame, and you believe that finding a woman that likes bro stuff is ideal, it's just a challenge to find" is specifically what I think is wrong and needs to be destroyed. Guys should be told "girl stuff is fucking amazing when your girl partner is doing it. You'll love it, you actually do need it in a relationship, the challenge is accepting this fact rather than trying to find a bro-girl." Not that there’s anything wrong with bro-girls. But many, many men need to be told that seeing a girl loving typical girl stuff is awesome, and being with one enriches your life.

Delight In Her Femininity

But some girl stuff is lame

For a guy, yeah. That's the whole point! If it wasn't lame you wouldn't be different. :) You don't go see a romcom with your girl because you like the romcom. You go because you like watching her enjoy the romcom. The expression of her femininity/joy is the awesome part, not the movie itself. Or, alternately, you don't read the romance novel and partake in the costume sewing yourself, that'd be boring and lame. But you delight in seeing her do those things.

It is a wonderful feeling, watching someone being like that. And it’s extremely valuable to have my life entwined with someone who is very good at those things exactly because I am not. The dance is more complicated, more interesting, and more rewarding on multiple levels.

1. I really gotta get to writing up that "Do words mean things? Consider Machinehead" post.